reb_hillel: Can I see what your shul's sanctuary looks like?

reb_hillel (

reb_hillel) wrote,
@ 2007-09-19 10:12:00

Can I see what your shul's sanctuary looks like?
I'm curious to see what kinds of shuls you guys go to. How is the sanctuary set up? Which way do the leaders face? Where do they sit? Bimah in center of the room? At front? Chazzan's amud and/or table for Torah reading centered before the Ark, or rabbi's and cantor's lecturns side-by-side at opposite ends of the stage? Separate (side by side with/without mechitza, or balcony) or mixed seating? Does the sanctuary face the correct direction (Ark on the wall that's in direction of Jerusalem? If not, do people pray facing the Ark or facing Jerusalem?)? Etc. etc. IF you can, please post a photo or two. You could link to a photo from your shul's website, or better yet display it inline in your comment by typing

<img src=http://link_to_the_photo.jpg>

in your comment. Also, mention what you like about the setup, what you don't like, how you feel about it, etc. etc.

Also, what are the services like? What siddur is used? Is stuff skipped? Is stuff said in English? Lots or a little? Full chazarah or hoicha kedusha? Duchaning? Egalitarian? If so, how much? Is there a choir? Is there a professional cantor or are services lay-led? Are there musical instruments (what kind? built-in pipe organ?)?

And what movement is your shul affiliated with?

Thanks!

(If you're reading this on my facebook, please go to my livejournal blog and post your response there so that all the responses are in one place. http://reb-hillel.livejournal.com . Thanks)

(48 comments) - (Post a new comment)

pocketnovel
2007-09-19 09:07 am UTC (link)

In Seattle I go to Congregation Beth Shalom, which is a fairly traditional egalitarian congregation affiliated with the Conservative movement. It has three side-by-side seating sections, all mixed although spaced out enough that you could sit/look single sex if you wanted. The bimah is at the front of the room with the Torah reading table centered before the Ark. There is a rabbi's lectern on one side of the bimah, and then there is another lectern below the bimah at the front of the seating section, if that makes sense. The vast majority of davening is led by lay people from the lower lectern, and leaders always face the Ark. I am terrible with direction but I am fairly sure the Ark faces Jerusalem, at congregations where it hasn't I've always noticed at least a couple people facing toward Jerusalem instead of the ark.

The services are entirely Hebrew and feels much like an Orthodox service in that people come and go but catch up if appropriate, whereas in most American progressive congregations latecomers will just jump in wherever the leader is. The siddur is the Conservative Movement's Siddur Sim Shalom, which I like quite a bit, and nothing is skipped. I sometimes use the Artscroll transliterated siddur if I'm too tired to read Hebrew and the Hebrew is interchangeable, except that CBS uses the version of the Amidah in Siddur Sim Shalom that adds the matriarchs. The full Torah and Haftarah readings are done every week, all in Hebrew.

It's a very nice blend of traditional and progressive. It's one of those congregations at the right wing of the Conservative movement where the lines with Modern Orthodox get very blurry--the main things that identify it as not Orthodox are 1) only mixed sections, 2) use of microphones, and 3) woman rabbi. And it doesn't have the pseudo-Protestant things that really bother me in many left-wing services, such as warm and fuzzy English interpretations and songs, choir, guitars, pipe organ, etc. But for me that's more a matter of personal preference than a theological objection for the most part.

The Conservative congregation I attend in San Francisco is much the same, perhaps not a surprise since it is the similarly named Congregation Beth Sholom! Unfortunately they are in the middle of building a new synagogue so I can't comment on the sanctuary arrangements, right now we meet in the social hall of another synagogue (or currently at the Scottish Rite Center for High Holidays, which is just weird). But the services have much the same feel as I described above (except with a male rabbi).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pocketnovel 2007-09-19 09:10 am UTC (link)
	Ah, here are a couple (rather large) drawings of Beth Sholom's new sanctuary: (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	Cool post! Thanks! I hope others post as well. And I love the pictures -- What an interesting looking sanctuary. (Although I wonder if the bleachers are going to make it feel like a college basketball game?) :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

jonahrank
2007-09-19 01:38 pm UTC (link)

At my shul, a Conservative shul on Long Island, the main sanctuary is usually too small itself to fit everybody so we usually open up the back doors, behind which are about four rows of extra chairs that are parallel with the rows of pews (I think there are about 8 pews probably each of which can seat about ten people: one set of these approximate 80 seats per side with a division down the middle wherein people may walk or the Torah may process). Except when davenen the Amidah or Aleynu - during which the clergy face the Ark while still standing at their respective stenders (unless they are on the floor during R"H or Y"K's Aleynu) - the clergy generally face the congregation from the bimah, whereupon the rabbi stands at the right (from the perspective of the pew-congregant) with a narrow stender and the cantor stands at the left with a wide stender so as to support the Torah for the Torah reading. The bimah has about four steps that go about the length of the distance between the cantor's and rabbi's stenders to get from the sanctuary's floor level to the bimah. The Ark is built into the back wall of the Bimah - located between the rabbi's and cantor's stenders. The Bimah is in front of the congregation. Behind both stenders are about three chairs whereupon the rabbi and cantor will sit often on their respective sides; they often are joined by those about to participate in the service (for example with an aliyyah) or by board members who may be making announcements or speaking from the Bimah. There is no mechitzah (though there is a non-Egalitarian minyan that occasionally meets in one of the other rooms of the shul: aside from a second chapel [and a makeshift third chapel for yamim nora'im]). I believe that the sanctuary faces the direction of Jerusalem.

I feel that this is a good setup for the sanctuary; however, the congregation is in the midst of redesigning the entire shul, and though I do not know the exact details for the new main chapel I know that the new plan will better suit my participatory community.

We use the pre-matriarch-optional Siddur Sim Shalom, the RA's Tish'ah Be'av Siddur on Tish'ah Be'av, and for High Holidays a 1951 Prayer Book Press Mahzor on which Rabbis Milton Steinberg and Louis Finkelstein worked. Copies of Rabbi Reuven Hammer's Or Chadash are also available for use. Nothing is skipped; however, on Shabbatot and some Yamim Tovim generally the Musaf Amidah is recited in the form of a Heikha Qedusha (as is also the custom for Monday-Friday mornings - which meet in a separate chapel and during which Tachanun is not recited communally [though some individuals do recite it]). The main services at the shul are egalitarian, as we have a female chazan even (and a male rabbi). "A Prayer for Our Country" is recited in English, and on Friday nights, Mizmor Shir Leyom Hashabbat is often recited responsively in English (as are some passages following the Shema). Duchaning only occurs on Shabbat and Yom Kippur. A choir sings for Musaf on the High Holidays and on select occasions during the year (mostly limited though to Shabbat Shirah). The chazan is a professional cantor and a graduate of JTS; there are many lay shelichey tzibbur though who often lead services; however, when the cantor is present, usually the cantor will lead at least one part (and generally more). There are no regularly used musical instruments during services; however, the shul has had a few Kabbalot Shabbat with instruments (clarinet, violin, accordion, piano, and guitar most often) ending after Lekhah Dodi.

My shul is affiliated with USCJ.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jonahrank 2007-09-19 01:41 pm UTC (link)
	And there are photos of the sanctuary (though not the entire sanctuary: you'd have to spy through the photos) at the website www.mjc.org . (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	I can't really see any pictures of the sanctuary except the tiny one in the banner at the top. Can you link me directly to some? Thanks. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2007-09-19 06:46 pm UTC (link)
	If you look at the Purim photos, generally the photos which show people in pews will be of the sanctuary. There are no other photos I could find though of the empty sanctuary. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jonahrank 2007-09-19 06:47 pm UTC (link)
	Above was my response... I forgot to log in. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 08:45 pm UTC (link)
	When you say "Except when davenen the Amidah or Aleynu - during which the clergy face the Ark while still standing at their respective stenders (unless they are on the floor during R"H or Y"K's Aleynu) - the clergy generally face the congregation from the bimah", does Amidah include the chazarah or hoiche kedusha? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	Also, what do you mean by "unless they are on the floor during R"H or Y"K's Aleynu"? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jonahrank 2007-09-19 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	By that, I meant that though the clergy are facing the Ark during the whole of Aleynu on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, they are bowing on the floor (rather than standing) during part of it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jonahrank 2007-09-19 08:55 pm UTC (link)
	I actually should have qualified and clarified that in fact. The clergy face the Ark actually only through the end of the Kedushah when reciting the Amidah out loud, but the clergy face the Ark during any silent recitation of any portion of the Amidah. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 09:00 pm UTC (link)
	So, mid-amidah (mid-chazarah) they turn around? Wow, that's not allowed. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jonahrank 2007-09-19 09:05 pm UTC (link)
	Actually facing the Ark during the beginning of the Chazarah is only a recent innovation at the shul; I personally feel that, regardless of common halakhah, it is better to face the Ark for part of the Amidah rather than none of it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	hatam_soferet 2007-09-24 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	In my shul on YK they not only turn around, but go and sit down when the rabbinic intern is talking. Why he needs to talk mid-chazara I couldn't say, but the shat"z goes and sits down while he's doing it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-24 06:47 pm UTC (link)
	:( sigh (Reply to this) (Parent)

curious_reader
2007-09-19 04:02 pm UTC (link)

I can't provide you with a picture as I only go for festivals or Shabbat.
I actually go to Assif which fully-egalitarian UK Masorti. The bima is always in the East. We never change but we have no ark. It is just the drawing room we use and put the torah scroll on the table (functioning as a bima) covered with a big cloth. The bima is near to the wall. The chairs are of course facing it.

The main service of the New North London Synagogue is not egalitarian. We have no Mechitsa but woman and men are seperated seated. We leave a corridor between the chairs. I sometimes go there when there is a festival and none in Assif. They have the ark placed either on the East side on the opposite against the wall. I don't know what direction it is. People pray in direction of the ark depending which one is used. The ark is put on the other side when the other wall needs to be removed in order to make the room larger.

There is a third service as well. I know they half-egalitarian and call up men only. Women do not lead the service either but they have mixed seatings. When we have a service with them together the ark is place another wrong direction against the wall. There seem to be no worries which direction should be avoided.

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	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	That's very surprising that they're so quick and eager to change the side of the Aron HaKodesh and the side people are praying to! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

curious_reader
2007-09-20 01:08 pm UTC (link)

They seem not be worried when they change the position. I am actually in general no good with directions but I know where East Finchley, North Finchley and West Finchley is. I can orientate myself according to geography. From the Shul it is very easy to figure out because East End Road passes the Shul and goes to East Finchley. I don't like the fact changing the position of the ark they just try to find the space. I can't just change it myself. I do not like to go against the community and pray in a completely different direction than anybody else does. We get a new building next year. They are still working on it. I hope they have then enough space that they do not need to mess up directions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

lethargic_man
2007-09-22 09:40 pm UTC (link)

The main shul has the ark at the east normally, but for festivals they open an annex as an overflow, which is to the east of the shul; consequently the ark has to get moved to the west. This building is not a purpose-built shul; all this will change when the shul builds its own building shortly.

Assif is also geographically constrained; it's housed in the old Finchley manor house. The (closed-off) fireplace at the front has ornate carvings in it, including a couple of human heads and shoulders—hardly ideal for a shul, but there's not a lot we can do about it. (Again, when the NNLS builds its own shul, Assif will get a room in it.) The reading table we use for a bimah is at the front; but there's not enough room for it anywhere else. During קריאת התורה we spin the bimah around (it's on wheels) to face the congregation. (When I'm on gabbai duty I find it useful to put a foot in front of the bimah, to stop it running away if anyone leans on it!) Assif is very informal; there are no special chairs for anyone, and we don't have a rabbi (though R. Chaim Weiner often davens with us).

The room used by the third service, Hakol Olin, is the most bizarre. The room is oblong with the long axis east-west. There is an ark on the (wait for it) west wall, but Hakol Olin have their own ark on the north wall. (The entrance is in the south wall, but there are also a couple of doors in the east wall.) The site is co-owned by the NNLS and the Movement for Reform Judaism; this may (possibly) explain the ark on the west wall.

Coming back to Assif, the service is Masorti, fully egalitarian, and with non-segregated seating. They daven using the (Orthodox) Singer's prayer book (the Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the UK and Commonwealth), כמנהג אנגלי. The service is full except for: (a) parts of פסוקי דזימרה may be skipped, depending on the speed of the ש״ץ; (b) mussaf is davened heicha kedusha; and (c) the likes of בריך שמא, פטום הקטרת and אענים זמירות are missed out. Only the Prayer for the Government is said in English. Duchaning is only done on Yom Tov (and I'm not sure even then). Services are completely lay-led; we normally get 30–40 people on a Shabbos morning.

The service includes lots of singing, including a selection from אלהי נשמה, ברוך שאמר, מי האיש החפץ חיים, Great Hallel, מקולות מיים, the last Psalm, עזי וזמרת יה, הכל ידוך, והאר עינינו and לדור ודור, all of which I mention specially because, though I get the impression singing them might be standard in the Masorti/Conservative movement, I have never heard a single one of these sung in my thirty-plus prior years within Orthodoxy in the UK.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

curious_reader
2007-09-23 02:14 pm UTC (link)

You know better how to explain it.
About some of your comments. Yes, they have duchening on Yom Tov and High Holidays. In the Akiva hall and drawing room the ark or Torah scroll at least is in the East. I ended up by accident in the Reform service for Kol Nidrei. The reason was they did not let me in the Akiva hall because it was full. I did not understand where the service supposed to be. There would have been another in Limmud I found out later when everybody came out from the services.
Anyway, the Reform (from Alyth Gardens) is basically the traditional prayers and order. I am not very familiar with they High Holidays and Yom tov sidurim. They might have cut prayers out and put some English text in you can read by yourself if you like. The ark was in the East. The huge tent was much bigger than the one of the main service, Limmud, Akiva hall or drawing room. They used microphones and had a choir and a professional singer who was either conducting or singing herself. I knew her and the Rabbi as I sometimes went to their actually place in Alyth Gardens for Friday night. Someone was playing the cello at some point. I liked the service but would have preferred a more singing community. Lots of the tunes were not even very familiar to me. People partly joined in when it was familiar.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	curious_reader 2007-09-23 02:16 pm UTC (link)
	I forgot. The Reform in Alyth gardens (their own premises) have their ark on the East wall, too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	lethargic_man 2007-09-23 06:41 pm UTC (link)
	Someone was playing the cello at some point. It wasn't the famous setting of Kol Nidrei (plus another theme) for 'cello and orchestra by Max Bruch, was it? (Reply to this) (Parent)

Marisa's shul in CT
(Anonymous)
2007-09-19 04:08 pm UTC (link)

I can't seem to link directly to the photo, but it's on the website for the shul: http://www.orshalomct.org/content/publish/default.shtml

Sanctuary is set up so that people face east; yes, the ark is on the eastern wall. Our rabbi stands at the bimah facing outward unless it's the barchu or amidah, then he faces east with the rest of us. The bimah is on a raised platform with seating all around it, although no seating is actually between the bimah & the ark. Completely mixed seating, although there is usually a gossipy section near the back during the high holidays.

Services are sweet & simple - no cantor, just the rabbi. (I should not be making those things parallel, but hey. Sometimes I'm the cantor, so there.) We use Sim Shalom, but used to use its Conservative predecessor, Likrat Shabbat, on shabbat. One or two English readings, (usually responsive) and I don't think we skip anything... although we don't do the full chazerah. Our rabbi gets frequent cantoring help from lay people (and me) on shabbat morning, and they hire a cantor for RH & YK, and 99% of the time there are no instruments. (I was at one bas mitzvah where they had a strong desire for a clarinet.) And yeah, the shul is affiliated Conservative, although Rabbi Wainhaus was ordained orthodox.

I can't wait to read everyone else's entries... and I'd recommend www.shulshopper.com if you want to go looking for others!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Marisa's shul in CT

reb_hillel
2007-09-19 08:51 pm UTC (link)

It looks very pretty. Question: Cantor faces the ark for chazarat hashatz or hoicha kedusha too?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

magid
2007-09-19 04:36 pm UTC (link)

Hi, saw your post on friendsfriends...

The minyan I daven most with (there are three I cycle among, but this one the most) doesn't have a set space, in that Shabbat morning services are in one place, except in the summer, when it's somewhere else, Friday nights are in a totally different location, and yomim tovim can be completely different spaces.

In each of those, however, Minyan Tehillah tries for the same set-up. The aron is on the eastern wall. There's a string holding up the front-to-back mechitzah, which is pulled aside during divrei Torah and announcements. The shulchan is in front of the aron, in front of the mechitzah, because while men lead shacharit, musaf, and maariv, women lead kabbalat Shabbat and psukei d'zimra, and both men and women layn. When it's not Torah-reading time, there's a shtender/lectern on the shulchan to make it easier for the leader. It's all volunteers leading, people coming up when they're doing something, no cantor or choir or musical instruments.

There are Birnbaums and Artscrolls available, plus whatever people bring of their own to use; the assumption is that for regular davening, people are familiar enough that there aren't page numbers announced. It's the standard Orthodox service, full hazarah, everything said in Hebrew, with an additional prayer for peace at the end of Shabbat morning davening (written in the last 100 years or so, but I'm blanking on which rabbi wrote it). Oh, and there's duchaning on yom tov.

(Reply to this)

twostepsfwd
2007-09-19 05:43 pm UTC (link)

I don't have a shul that is "mine" right now. I go back and forth between a Conservative shul in Kingston (1/2 hr away), the Recon shul in town which I grew up in, and the Chabad in town. None of them meet all my spiritual needs, unfortunately, but I'm trying to learn how to deal with that and focus on the positive instead of desperately missing the Conservative shul in Berkeley that I used to go to (and which had a beautiful, sunlight-filled mixed-seating design with the ark and prayer leaders facing east).

The shul I grew up in (Recon shul that had formerly been Conservative) is in a building that I think once upon a time may have been a church, but the ark does face east/southeast. It's just a big room with mixed seating, an aisle down the middle, old wooden pews, and a carpeted bima in front of the ark. The rabbi/prayer leaders usually face towards the congregation, but they face the ark for aleinu, barchu (?), amidah and some other key prayers.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	twostepsfwd 2007-09-19 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	(And at Chabad, the "shul" is in the Chabad House, it's not really a synagogue - just a multipurpose room with a curtain strung up in between men's and women's sections, no bimah, no ark (though they must have a portable one to use for holidays and Shabbos mornings - I don't know, I only go on Friday PM's) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	reb_hillel 2007-09-19 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	Does "Amidah" include the chazarah as well? Chazan faces east for the full chazarah? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	twostepsfwd 2007-09-19 08:54 pm UTC (link)
	Hm - I don't know, that's a good question. I can't recall of the top of my head. (Reply to this) (Parent)

The Shul I Grew Up At.

awful_dynne
2007-09-19 07:06 pm UTC (link)

So, there is the shul I grew up in/at

just clicking on that brings you to the main website which has a picture of the bimah. As you will see, it has a podium for the rabbi, a podium for the hazzan and a reading table. It is egalitarian, with mixed seating, though if someone really, really wanted to have it be non-mixed without a formal mechitza it would be very easy to do. The siddur that they use is Siddur Sim Shalom, the bigger one...ie the one that has Shabbat and weekday together rather than separated into two siddurim. They rarely do anything other than a hoicha kedusha, to my knowledge there is never duchneing, even on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur(which I find to be too bad, because I kind of like having to stand and hear the kohanim bless the congregation), I am fairly sure that on Shabbat they do a fairly full Pesukei, though, growing up I was rarely in shul that early,so when I was, I probably didn't pay as close attention because I didn't know Pesukei D'Zimra very well, and when I am visiting, I am bound to when my parents want to be there, so overall I'd say that they do a fairly complete Pesukei D'Zimra. The only things done in English are the prayer for the country, congregation, American armed forces, Israeli armed forces, the hostages from last summer. The only thing that they skip in terms of prayers that I know of is Yikum Purkan and Anim Zemirot. I am really very sad that they don't do Anim Zemirot because it is very high on my list of things that are meaningful to me. They do a standard triennial reading I think...a few years ago they were doing something kind of weird where they were reading all the way through and then to keep up with the rest of the world, they'd read the maftir of the actual parsha of the week....I can't explain it because I didn't understand it, but now they do the regular tri-ennial reading, and regular haftarah. The hazzan leads most of the services, though there are lay leaders who do the Torah readings...mainly the same few people...these same few people and a bunch of others are very capable lay leaders when the hazzan is not there(like when she is on maternity leave). I love this shul, possibly because before going off to college, it was the only place I'd ever know. I feel like generally, everything about it is wonderful, except that it is not in Israel and it is no longer a type of davening experience that is meaningful for me. One major comment on the siddur is that I believe rather strongly that because of the shul's commitment to that siddur, that it gave me the ability to feel very comfortable with the siddur, and also gave me the tools in which to be able to navigate my way thru siddurim which aren't the one the shul uses.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: The Shul I Grew Up At. reb_hillel 2007-09-19 08:57 pm UTC (link)
	Your picture didn't come through. I think you meant this: BTW a female hazzan is a hazzanit. (Reply to this) (Parent)

The Shul At School.

awful_dynne
2007-09-19 07:07 pm UTC (link)

As for the shul I go to at school....there aren't any pictures of the sanctuary on their website...it is much, much smaller, than the shul I grew up in, a lot more skipping around, a lot less dedication, a siddur I can't stand (Siddur Chadash is what it is called). The bimah is set up in a similar way to the one I grew up in, except on a much smaller scale. A pulpit for the rabbi and for the hazzan, and a reading table in the middle in front of the Aron Kodesh. Except for the Amidah and Aleinu, services are led facing the congregation. One big difference, again, due to size, is that all of these stands are on the same level as the rest of the congregation, as opposed to the shul I grew up at which is on a raised bimah, kind of like a stage, with rounded stairs ascending and ramps flanking the bimah. The shul I go to at school, being on the ground has none of that. It is mainly lay led, except for the couple of weeks a month when the rabbi is in town. (They do a really weird kriah, and I don't even know if it halakhic...I keep meaning to ask you about it...on the weeks when the rabbi isn't there, one of the lay leaders reads from the chumash from the side of the reading table while another person follows along in the scroll itself, but not reading from the scroll itself...is that actually okay?) I don't really feel comfortable at this shul anymore because not only is it not anywhere close to being meaningful services, I don't feel comfortable with the style and mood that is exuded....now if only I hadn't established myself as part of their community....

Anyways, both shuls are egalitarian, and as far as I know of the Aron Kodesh is on the eastern wall. There are no instruments or choirs played on Shabbat in either shul, though microphones are used in both. They both affiliate with the USCJ.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The Shul At School.

reb_hillel
2007-09-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)

They do a really weird kriah, and I don't even know if it halakhic...I keep meaning to ask you about it...on the weeks when the rabbi isn't there, one of the lay leaders reads from the chumash from the side of the reading table while another person follows along in the scroll itself, but not reading from the scroll itself...is that actually okay?

Absolutely not! I'm horrified!
Why don't you volunteer to read for them, properly?
Don't ever take an aliyah there, you'd be making blessings in vain.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The Shul At School. awful_dynne 2007-09-20 02:31 am UTC (link)
	Wow. Okay....yikes. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The Shul At School.
lethargic_man
2007-09-22 09:48 pm UTC (link)

They've done that in Edinburgh (Orthodox) when they've had no rabbi. When the rabbi left when I was there, they were going to do it again, but my flatmate Fabien took on the whole of the leyning himself so this wouldn't happen. (If I was as committed then as I was now, I might have volunteered to take on a little myself, but I wasn't.)

When

livredor I visited Norwich (which, as an aside, was the centre of Anglo-Jewry prior to the expulsion in 1290) three years ago, they asked me during שחרית on Shabbos if I could leyn. I didn't realise until they called me up that they didn't have anyone who could leyn, and that they were going to do what

awful_dynne described upthread. Knowing that this is unhalachic, I began reading along from the Sefer Torah in an undertone; this is when I discovered I could sightread, getting about nineteen out of twenty words right, from a Sefer Torah. :o) After my aliyah, I explained the situation, and volunteered to take over, but they declined, presumably put off by the fact I'd be leyning without trop, and I didn't force the issue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The Shul At School.

twostepsfwd
2007-09-19 09:02 pm UTC (link)

on the weeks when the rabbi isn't there, one of the lay leaders reads from the chumash from the side of the reading table while another person follows along in the scroll itself, but not reading from the scroll itself...is that actually okay?)

I just noticed they have started doing that in the shul I grew up in (where I go occasionally now that I'm back here, to be with my family). I am really alarmed by it. If I'm not mistaken I think I once saw them do it for a Bar Mitzvah, even! I know I shouldn't be surprised, it's Reconstructionist - But growing up they were closer to Conservative, and now they do all kinds of things I can't stand (and which aren't halachically correct).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The Shul At School. reb_hillel 2007-09-19 09:06 pm UTC (link)
	What can I say? I'm shocked! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The Shul At School. twostepsfwd 2007-09-19 09:12 pm UTC (link)
	If I were still really involved in that shul, or a member, I would say something to the rabbi. But I'm not. (Reply to this) (Parent)

spin0za1
2007-09-19 07:36 pm UTC (link)

Dunno if I've shown you before, but this is Kane Street...

I'm not sure why the photographer decided to do the weird stretchy fisheye thing with the photo... the pews are not actually curved and neither the space nor the aron is as wide as it appears. As I think I've mentioned before, the Aron is on the south facing wall. We face the Aron for amida, but for bentching lulav we face east.

We use the Slim Shalom for davening, and our official chumash is Etz Hayyim though we also keep Stones and Hertzes around. When I was young we used Silverman and Hertz. We still use the Silverman machzor. We daven a full amida with chazarat hasha"tz for shacharit, but do a heiche amida for mussaf. My father (chair of the ritual committee) is trying to push through a policy of doing full repetition once a month). We have one weekday minyan, and that is Sunday morning. We have Friday night services (which I historically have not often attended... they are Carlebach-y... not that there's anything wrong with that) and we have mincha at 1 on Shabbat and I believe that there is also... oh wait... looking at the website, they've changed things since I've been away. Now apparently they do mincha/maariv at the end of shabbat. Interesting.

As you can see, the setup is such that the readers desk and the amud are on the bimah which is up in the front. The sha"tz leads facing the aron, and we read the Torah facing the congregation. In English we say the prayer for our country (America) and the prayer for peace (responsively). We have a shortened prayer for Israel which we have a tune for. I can't bring to mind now whether or not we do a complete p'sukei d'zimra... honestly, until fairly recently I never got to shul at the beginning of services because my family never did. I can't think of anything else we skip. Oh, we do duchanen only on yamim noraim, we are completely egal, the balcony is closed except on RH and YK, no instruments (chas v'chalila!), we have a choir which I am in but the choir is rarely used in a liturgical capacity, usually we have separate performances or we have a mini performance after a shul event or sometimes we accompany the sha"tz for announcing rosh chodesh. The choir will often sing the Rossi 5-part kaddish at some point RH and/or YK during the service and sometimes there are some other things but our role in the shul is not like a church choir.

What I like: it's familiar, is always a plus. The sanctuary feels like home, more than any other place I think... it is the one fixture in my life that has remained relatively unchanged. The people who daven at Kane Street are, by and large, well educated, and care (in theory) about services being run halachically, as well as aesthetically. I like that our congregation is generally speaking very participatory, that a large portion of our congregants can and do lein (I know we have a difference of opinion in the value of this), that the services are lay led. I like that our congregation is diverse. We have a lot of converts. I like that we are on the traditional end in our practice, that we do a full Torah reading, that we actually don't use pasul sifrei torah for kria, that we don't do fluffy "lets create a spiritual space" sort of stuff, that I can sit in the community room during kiddush with Noah and and Danny and Josh and Jay and Naomi and Ralph and Lisa and my sister and her husband and talk and argue about Judaism and the Conservative Movement and agree or disagree with what the rabbi said today etc. I like that we have a lot of rabbis in the congregation and that I get to be friends with them.

...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

spin0za1
2007-09-19 07:36 pm UTC (link)

...cont.

I like that we have obscure traditions that other people seem not to know about. I like that our shul has a history... it is the oldest continually operating congregation in Brooklyn, the merger of a sephardi and and ashkenazi congregation, which is reflected in the transliteration of the name Baith Yisrael Anshei Emes, it was Aaron Coplan's childhood shul, Israel Goldfarb (who wrote the famous Shalom Aleichem melody that people think is MiSinai, and whose brother Sam wrote "I Have A Little Dreidl) was the rabbi for 60 years. I like that I am a part of that history, having been around for 25 years. I like that even in our traditionalism we also managed to have a woman as a rabbi in 1986 (she held the position for 8 or 9 years). I like our building, which by coincidence is exactly as old as the congregation (erected in 1856) and was built as a Dutch Reform Church, and feels warm and safe and familiar. I like that we as a congregation have our inside jokes and collective memories, and that we yet seem to manage to integrate newcomers so well... to the point that it feels almost as though the memories are transfered to people as they come into the family. I don't know how it happened, but there is something very very special about this place, about the people, about the place.

What I don't like? mostly it is a function of my having grown up there, that when I walk in there, I necessarily have to confront my past... that a large number of the folks there have known me since I was two so those times when one tries to reinvent oneself become very difficult. This becomes particularly problematic with changing observance levels. Folks who were there for your naming and for your bat mitzvah and through your parents' divorce and remarriages are always watching, it seems, your every move, and if you decide to, say, no longer take rides home from shul on shabbat, or if you start or stop wearing a tallit, or anything, you always feel like there are eyes on you. Well, on me, I mean.

What don't I like? I'm right now working on some conflicts in my mind about what we do there, back home and what I'm learning now about what is proper and halachic and I'm worried about what I'm going to find myself not liking when I get back. I can get back to you about some of this stuff after the chagim when I plan to email my rabbi with some questions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

reb_hillel
2007-09-19 08:36 pm UTC (link)

It looks very pretty.

As I think I've mentioned before, the Aron is on the south facing wall. We face the Aron for amida, but for bentching lulav we face east.

That's very backwards! There's no real obligation to face east while doing lulav, just like there isn't when blowing the shofar, or putting on tefillin. But for the amidah, there *IS* an obligation to face East.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	spin0za1 2007-09-19 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	yeah, that's in my list of questions. (Reply to this) (Parent)

margavriel
2007-09-23 06:55 pm UTC (link)

1. Leaders face the Ark (as does everyone else), i.e. towards Jerusalem (eastward).

1a. Why would the leaders "sit"?

2. "Bimah" in dead center of room. "Table for Torah reading" on the "bimah".

3. "Chazzan's lecturn" in front of room, just below the stage in front of the Ark. Chief rabbi's seat is to the right of the stage (below). Associate rabbi's seat is to the left of the stage (below). On occasions when either of the rabbis speaks, he get up onto the stage, and faces the congregation.

4. Men below, women in balcony.

5. Rödelheimer siddur / machzôrim / selichôs / kinôs

6. Nothing skipped

7. Nothing said in English

8. Full chazarah, always

9. Duchening on each Yom-Tov day, in both Shacharis and Musof. On YK, also in Ne`ilo.

10. Only men lead.

11. Yes, there is a choir.

12. Semi-professional cantors.

13. No musical instruments.

14. German Neo-Orthodoxy? Torah `im Derekh Eretz?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

margavriel
2007-09-23 07:08 pm UTC (link)

Oh, and to further specify 11: The choir sings every Friday evening "Lecho Dôdi" and "Mizmôr Shir", and (at the end of the service) "Sholôm Rov Le'ôhavei Sôrosecho" (found in the siddur after "Bamme Madlikin"). We sing the so-called "Ausheben" and "Einheben" (taking out the Torah and putting back the Torah), and Ein Keilôheinu and An`im Zemirôs, each Shabbos morning. (We use different tunes for each of these, varying them from week to week.) Each Saturday night, we sing "Shir Hamma`alôs, Ashrei kol Yerei es Hashem" (same tune each week).

On Yôm Tôv, we sing Halleil (except the first days of Sukkôs, because we don't want to spar each other with our lulovim), in addition to the things that we normally sing on Shabbos morning. On Yôm Tôv evening, we finish with a choral Yigdal. On the first day of Yom Tov, we usually go straight from weekday mincho into Borachu, but on the second evening, when there is a break between them (usually filled with a speech), we begin `Arvis with a choral "Ma Tôvu".

We are very particular on the liturgical rite of Western Ashkenaz, specifically as practiced in pre-WWII Frankfurt-am-Main.

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hatam_soferet
2007-09-24 06:58 pm UTC (link)

Conservative Shul's Upstairs minyan is west-facing, (paid) (until he left) hazan faces aron whilst davening amidot but congregation the rest of the time, amud centred on bima, rabbi&president to left, hazan's seat to right. Mixed seating; old people in the middle tier, younger people on the side tiers (this is coincidence). Congregation generally face aron whilst davening, those which daven. Sim Shalom and Etz Hayim (ugh), English for yekum purkan, berikh shmei, USA/Israel, lots of page numbers, chazara for shaharit but heicha for musaf. Egal, does cohen/levi, don't recall if they do duchening. Kiddush & motzie on bima.

The Downstairs Minyan is lay-led, faces south, ppl + hazan daven south. It's a long rectangular social hall-type room and the south wall is the long one, so the (portable) amud is in the centre of the south wall, means ppl aren't stuck at the back unable to hear. Hazara at discretion of shatz for shaharit (again ugh), never at musaf. Imahot at discretion of shat"z. Form of imahot ditto. No music, lots of squalling kids. Sometimes does cohen/levi at discretion of gabbai.

Conservative Shul's Weekday Minyan is in the chapel, facing south, and they do a long birkat ha-shahar, skip all of pseukei except barukh she-amar, ashrei, and yishtabah, do the weirdest heicha kedusha ever, thus: start as you'd expect, through to end of kedusha, then tail off during ha-el ha-kadosh into silence, like you normally would for ga'al yisrael. Pick up again at Shema koleinu, birkat kohanim, finish normally, skip straight to kaddish. Then ALL the ending bits from Ashrei thru shir shel yom. Which is so</i> messed up. And when they do kriah, they do it with all the shabbat tunes so it takes forever.

All the above require headcovering when on bima.

The Open Orthodox Shul faces north, ppl daven northwards, they use Artscroll, mehitzah straight down the middle, bima central, gates from both sides, doors which go SLAM all the bloody time, hatikvah instead of adon olam, no yigdal ever, very Spiritual. No page numbers.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	margavriel 2007-09-25 03:36 am UTC (link)
	Why "ugh" about Etz Hayim? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	hatam_soferet 2007-09-25 09:31 am UTC (link)
	The commentary's ghastly, but I was more ugh-ing at the Sim Shalom. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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